What If Support Started Before The Fall

TW: Suicide

Pressure can shape a champion, or it can quietly break someone who feels they’ve lost everything overnight. We open a blunt, compassionate look at athlete suicide, why “awareness nights” rarely move the needle, and how injury, cuts, missed selections, and forced retirements collide with identity to create the riskiest moments in sport. The throughline is simple but demanding: connection over optics, systems over slogans.

We walk through what the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic movement rebuilt after Tokyo, including on-site mental health teams, crisis plans, and post-retirement funds—and why those supports still miss the athletes who don’t make the roster. We examine the NFL’s clinician mandate, MLB’s peer support efforts, and the NHLPA’s UNLMT program that tackles identity foreclosure while players are still active. Then we zoom into the softest spot in the ecosystem: college athletics. No national requirements for sports psychology staffing, fragile campus clinics, NIL money without matching education, and seniors stepping into life-changing transitions with thin safety nets.

Stigma still blocks help. That’s why non-clinical staff—CMPCs, strength coaches, athletic trainers, OTs—often serve as trusted gateways who can spot the slide early and make warm handoffs. Brains bruise, and thoughts can wobble after concussion; care must be proactive, not performative.

If you care about athletes—on your team, on your campus, or in your home—this conversation discusses workable ways to replace isolation with presence and help someone stay long enough to change their mind. Listen, share with a coach or AD, and tell us what you’ll implement first. Subscribe, leave a review, and tag us with the one concrete change you want your organization to make.

CRISIS LINES — GET HELP NOW 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline — Call or text 988 | https://988lifeline.org Crisis Text Line — Text HOME to 741741 | https://www.crisistextline.org NAMI Helpline — Call 1-800-950-6264 (M–F, 10am–10pm ET) | https://www.nami.org/help Trevor Project (LGBTQ+ youth) — Call 1-866-488-7386 | Text START to 678-678 | https://www.thetrevorproject.org Trans Lifeline — 877-565-8860 | https://translifeline.org

ATHLETE-SPECIFIC MENTAL HEALTH Athletes for Hope (Wellbeing Program) | https://www.athletesforhope.org/what-we-do/afh-mental-health National Association for Athletes' Mental Health (NAAMH) | https://www.naamh.org Athletes Mental Health Foundation | https://www.athletesmentalhealthfoundation.org U.S. Center for Mental Health & Sport | https://mentalhealthandsport.org Association for Applied Sport Psychology (AASP) — | https://appliedsportpsych.org/find-a-consultant

COLLEGE ATHLETE RESOURCES NCAA Sport Science Institute — Mental Health Hub | https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2021/2/10/sport-science-institute-mental-health.aspx Active Minds — mental health advocacy on college campuses | https://www.activeminds.org Jed Foundation — emotional health & suicide prevention for teens and young adults | https://jedfoundation.org

Transcript

Framing A Hard Conversation

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Hey everybody, welcome back. Pull up a chair. Grab something to drink. We got we got a couple of things we want to get into today. I think this conversation already has a lot of arms just in you and I trying to put it together, Matt. So let's see. Once again, unfortunately, another suicide that occurred in the sport world, the individual Rondale Moore. And I know that it's a very important topic for you and I. I know that it's a very big topic to take on. And I know that we won't be able to get to near to the end, ends and depths of where this conversation can go. I think something that it has sparked for us, especially coming off of the Olympics. The Olympics, you know, we just saw a platform for the last couple of weeks that just constantly talked about access to care, mental health, under pressure. It got me thinking. I know it got you thinking, Matt, in a couple of directions. So yeah, I mean, I'll leave it there as we start figuring out how to get into it.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

No, I mean, this the tragedy. Again, it's tragedy and loss of life. Where a league promotes or campaigns. Teams have it. It's is a campaign enough. Is like I just posted a on it today. Are those one off things good enough? You're you're like check you're checking the box. And you know, it's it's sad. You know, and I'll I can I can leave it there and we can go in whichever direction you want to go. Because it's like you said, we're not gonna be able to touch on every single octopus arm that this reaches, and there's no uh we can have our own ideas of how it should look, and at the end of the day, comes to educating and uh advocating for you know some type of change because what uh is currently taking place uh I believe is not effective. Especially especially in a organization that makes millions of dollars annually. Like trying to bring light to the the success that could be as a you know non-clinical CMPC working in an in that type of environment.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Whew, man, I would that would be amazing.

Injury, Cuts, And Identity Loss

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah, I mean, I think we continue to see a rise in the number. The research I found, some of it was only 2023, 2024, and it's still saying, you know, suicide rates have doubled in 20 years. They're that was probably one of the big ones. The thing is, is a lot of this research also was around college athletes, and I I want to kind of extend beyond the title college athlete, right? Because I also I think it's the age range. Because when we look at a lot of the Olympic athletes are, you know, can fall within that same age range, a lot of the NFL players can fall within that age range, MLB, you know, so right, like what happens when the performer doesn't make it? What happens when the athlete, you know, doesn't make the team, makes the team and then gets cut from the team, moves teams, you know, or or retires. For me, that's a pretty big standout.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

And injured and can't play anymore.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Yeah. So yeah, for season injury is season injury. Now, if you get to the the point in rehab where you can't come back, you know, now it's career ending injury.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Yeah, he he suffered season-ending injuries and back-to-back seasons, Ron Dale Moore. Yeah, I mean, imagine back to back, not only back-to-back season injuries, but with different teams, right? So I'm thinking about all of the uprooting. I'm thinking about the uprooting and you know, the shifting and go here and you know, be absorbed by this team, learn all the resources, but also don't mess up, right? And then suffers a season ending injury, is moved to another team, suffers another season ending injury, and then, you know, and then what? Right. I think of um I've you know, I've worked with some of the MLB before, and it's very similar. Like if you're not performing, you can get cut. If it's because of an injury, if it's an you know, if the injury has been signed off and you're still not performing, you can get cut. That can be season ending, that can be career ending, and then what? So I go back to like the transition, right? You mentioned something about in the Olympics, about mental health performance, like they a pretty strong, like a positive rap sheet for support in the Olympics. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yeah, I don't remember, I don't remember the exact data that they were spitting out, but I know there was a presentation given post-Paris Olympics and it was very good. I mean, a lot of the athletes were being seen more for mental performance versus mental health. And I th one of the biggest pieces that I took away from it was that there was one athlete that went into crisis, you know, where crisis intervention needed to take place.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

I know I know that there's been a lot of strides made in all of these programs, right? At least publicly.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

There's a lot of from all the meetings that I've set in with the psych team leadership of the US Olympic team, like they have completely overhauled their team, their approach, and now are being seen by other countries as the example of how it should look.

What The Olympics Changed Post-Tokyo

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Yeah. So they so post-Tokyo, they made a lot of changes, also post-Larry Nissar. There's a lot of protocol and structure that's being offered in place for Olympic athletes. There's a mental health assistant fund that actually offers eligibility to the athletes two years into retirement, which I think is so crucial. They also send mental health professionals to be on ground at you know, on site at the Olympics with really in-depth emergency action plans. So they have a lot that they have in place, and it does seem to be working well for the Olympic and Paralympic athletes. They also have access to a fund that they can, you know, readily use to get care in you know, stateside. And I know that uh we both are on the registry as people who've been vetted to support that population. So the the gap is that the athlete has to have been selected to represent the US in an Olympic or paralympic game, which means that if you if you are an athlete working towards that and you don't make the team, not this year, which means not for the next however many years, you don't have access to those. You've you are no longer eligible for that care. I want so same thing goes for the NFL. The NFL has a lot of really great programs that they talk about a lot. In the they're in the sport and they separate from the sport and there are a couple of transition program options that are there for them. But what does that look like? Is it a phone call? Like is somebody reaching out to them? Did they get handed a number and told on their way out, call this number if this individual had back-to-back season ending injuries? You know, was the program supporting him? I don't want any individual to think that they weren't doing what they could, right? I think a program as a whole, what can we do?

SPEAKER_00 9:18

I think that at the end of the day, like we we're not gonna be able to sit here and answer all the questions. Could the system change? Could organizations look at it differently? Could they put services in place that may not exist? Could they add people to the structure that may be there day in and day out? The transition piece is always hard, like even from even from the military standpoint. I guess you talk to any vet for the most part, and they'll tell you the outprocessing or the transition from service to civilian is garbage.

Who Gets Help And Who Doesn’t

SPEAKER_01 9:59

It is, it is, and in fact, I think that there's I think but I also think that that's one thing that the military military has done and highlighted so well, and I think needs to bleed over into other areas is that the most critical and vulnerable time of any any person, but for you know, this conversation, an elite performing person is the transition, right? So, and the military has they have acknowledged that they have put there's tons of programs in place. The army has something called the in-transition program. There are, you know, different programs that say, let let me make sure that I'm in contact with them. There's lots of nonprofits. A military person is not going to be denied care. Now, I'm not saying that some of that in some places doesn't come with hurdles. I've I've been there, I've supported and and I have been there and worked to try and make sure that a transitioning veteran has the care and I found roadblocks there, so I know they exist. But what I'm saying is that they have the military will not deny that this is one of the most vulnerable times. And I think that this is the one place that I feel is lacking in any other place where these individuals are just as vulnerable. There's no equivalent, right, to that transition program. There's no protocol that triggers when an athlete doesn't make the Olympic team. There's no counselor who reaches out, there's no transition coordinator who reaches out after the Olympic trials. The structure means, right, the structure of the Olympics, which again, it's working really well and they all deserve that care and support 100%. But the structure only reaches athletes that have been formally enrolled in their systems. So if you have a skier going off of the Winter Olympics, right? But as we're already looking towards, you know, LA 2028, right? If you have a swimmer who's been training for 10 years, they make it to the trials, they miss out by a fraction of a second, there is a good chance that when they walk out of that natatorium, there's no contact from any organization to check on their mental health, right? To see how they're doing. The NFL, you know, again, I can hand you a number all day, every day, but there's there's no follow-on like mandated. And we just named two very, very big governing bodies. I haven't even stepped into the world of you know, collegiate like college athletes, right? Where there's actually nothing mandated. No school has any particular protocol that they have to follow to support their college kids, let alone their athletes. I think that's a problem.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yeah. The transition is is is critical, right? You come off of an injury, you lose some lose their identity right away. What am I what am I doing? Who am I?

SPEAKER_04 12:57

Well, yeah, it's loss. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

We can look at who's there right away, right? And I think that's what I I tempted to try and do when I was working with service members that would suffer injury is allow the medical team to do what they need to do injury-wise. And then the moment I have an opportunity to get myself involved or find a way to get involved, it's making that contact, right? Service service member falls off the obstacle course, blows out his knee in all sorts of directions. The military, the army docs were like, There's no way you're coming back from this. That was their prognosis. Me and the physical therapist looked at each other and said, Bet. And we worked hard to get this service member back because that's what his goals were. His goals were to stay in and finish out this contract and jump out of an airplane again.

SPEAKER_04 13:52

Yeah.

Transition As The Highest-Risk Moment

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Knowing damn well the likelihood of re-injury post-catastrophic knee reconstruction is higher now. And we got him back, right? So, but it's the hey, what do you want? How do you want the next phase of your present moment to go? You're injured, you're gonna be out for a minimum of a year. How can I help you accomplish your goals? And that's just that's one aspect. That's one, that's one person. Now look at 4,449 more. People get injured all the time, right? You can you only have so much that you can do, but it's you find them and you gotta meet them. You can't and and follow through. I don't I don't know the ins and outs of transition programs outside of the military, as far as these other organizations are concerned, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

You can't leave them hanging.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Well, to your point, I think you know what you highlight as being one of the most crucial pieces is connection, right? Connection versus isolation. I will say that that is something that I was a strong advocate for. I think it's an area that the military can be better about. And I challenge leaders to make sure that if you ever have somebody who's on con leave for an injury that you're checking on them, right? That we're not just assuming they love being unattached from the military. Because, you know, check-ins are so important, they're so important. It's again, it's another transition, right? It's a threat to my career, which is a threat to my livelihood or identity, both which can feel very catastrophic. And if there's nobody there to talk it through, if there's if I'm stuck to my own thoughts, especially recovering injured thoughts, then yeah, they can get really big and really scary really fast. And again, there's a ton of research about what happens when a head injury is involved, and a lot of these extreme, a lot of competitive sports, a lot of athletes can suffer some sort of concussion at some point in their career that could always kind of change the game on how they're gonna handle their thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

The the repeated blows lead to CTE now. And what's one of the biggest concerns of CTE is is suicide.

Concussion, CTE, And Suicide Risk

Peer Support And League Programs

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Yeah, well, one of the biggest concerns after a concussion is altered is is altered mental health. And it is and suicidal thoughts are one of like, and it's it's a symptom, right? Like it's a symptom. I don't want anybody to ever think that after they have suffered an injury that they're entirely in charge of their thoughts, right? Like the aches and the pains of the brain cause thoughts, cause emotions that are scattered, they're inconsistent, they're overwhelming. That's not you, right? That's not you. That's not a reflection of you. So to circle back around, you talked about programs and transition. The I think every I think a lot of the programs are trying to do their part. I wanted to highlight the MLB has a program from what I could find. They have it sounds like it's a bit more of an education system, a little bit like a peer support network, where uh it's called the Bat Spring Training Fundraising Tour. So, what I could find on this is this is a program that trains, they visit the MLB teams and they talk with players and they train them, what sounds like as peer support to, you know, if you're in connection with a former player who may be in need of assistance, please reach out, get them connected. Right. It's it's an interesting informal relationship-based, which again, back to the military, we know all about peer support. So does a lot of, you know, law enforcement, first responder medical. I've trained and worked uh peer support teams across those as well, because again, that informal relationship-based connection first approach still works. It still works, right? Not necessarily, it's not perfect, but it works. It's something. Uh so the NHL has a program that was launched in 2023, which I actually think is really cool and was something in when I was making my notes about like a gap that I think helps. The NHL has kind of done that. It's called the UNLMT. And it's put on by the NHLPA, uh, the NHL Players Association. So it's it's designed to help so that players aren't waiting until their careers are over to figure out who they are outside of the game, right? Going back to a big thing that we talked about about identity, and that you are more than just your athletic performance. I mean, really to everybody, like we're more than our performance, period, right? But it's a really cool, it's a direct attack on the athletic identity foreclosure or just you know, performance identity foreclosure. So this program, again, it sounds like it starts with the players and then it extends beyond like confidence, mental health, normalizing, you know, mental health, mental wellness, mental performance, challenging the different things that are challenging the players. I think it's a really cool program. I I think it's a really cool program out there. I would encourage other, you know, other agencies to take a page out of their book because they're really, again, they're attacking that athletic identity foreclosure, which I think is a really, really big problem when we go back to what happens in that transition. Whatever caused that transition is really irrelevant, right? But when they're in that transition, support really support shouldn't start there. But if that's the only place that we catch them, it's still so, so important. But their big thing is not being solely defined as a hockey player has benefits both today and tomorrow. And I think that statement is so refreshing to read in a major governing bodies program. Yeah. And so, you know, again, unfortunately, we're all back in the headlines about the loss of the football player. At the end of the year, we just had several women college athletes that also died by suicide. And then recently I think the I think the documentary came out last year, but it's also still the Stanford player. Katie Myers is another one that is still currently in the news. That's an older, it's an older story, but it's still very relevant. And again, just what stands out is that major governing bodies are trying really hard to get it right. I think they still have like a massive growth curve when it calls when it comes to how do we catch them in the transition. How do we do like the NHL is talking about? Like how do we teach them about themselves, you know, for today and for tomorrow. And then I'm gonna I'm gonna highlight that colleges have zero nothing mandates a college to set up a program for their athletes, which is crazy. When I looked it up and I tried looking everywhere, like as much research is out there that says, like, hey, it's a problem. College-age athletes are at such a risk, right? Suicide is literally second, it's the second death to unintentional injury. But then when I went and tried to find, like, okay, well, what what do they have? It was broken down to say they can have anything that they want, but they don't actually have anything mandated.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

I think I think it's I think it's pretty fascinating because what we're seeing is people talk about the NIL money that gets poured into these universities from big big donors. Yeah. To pay to pay the athletes, right? Just for the athlete to up and leave, right? I think it's a couple, this is a month ago, Troy Aitman, from what I saw, was pretty upset about it. Donating these masses of amounts of money to these universities, these athletic programs, these departments for the athletes to leave. Why are we not taking that NIL money and putting it into programs?

SPEAKER_04 22:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Right? This is yes, I want the athletes to get paid there for their name and likeness, right? But at the same time, what programs are you putting in place to help these athletes?

SPEAKER_01 23:02

understand the massive amounts of money that they're getting they're being given but also there's there's you're absolutely right there's no programs in place that I'm aware of other than your immediate sports psych team if they're even involved at all well I was I was gonna say right like I I agree I saw the thing by Troy Aikman and I'm surprised that there's not more people yelling about this right like I'll probably get a whole lot louder if I have a kid who starts heading down that path they're not old enough for that yet right but that is definitely something because again right I'm all for autonomy and allowing these kids to choose their path and like but I'm also there's also a point where you know we also owe it to them to provide a structure I would rather the uncomfortable thing be taking care of themselves right than you know than really anything else.

Identity Beyond The Game

Colleges, NIL Money, And No Mandates

SPEAKER_00 24:04

And so again these amazing programs that are still evolving from these other places the Olympics is voluntary the NFL is mandatory which is cool they require every NFL team to have a licensed clinician which is a great start it's not the end point right like we should still be elevating that team set but college it's it's recommended it's not required D3 schools typically have zero dedicated sports sports psych staff there's no mandated ratio if there is a team is it sports specific what's the wait time you know is it required to go see them are you relying on your counseling center that's separate from athletics which is now a tiny center supporting the entire campus I give you the I there's a division three university yeah university here in my town all they have is the clinic all of their athletic teams if they need services they're funneled to the clinic on campus I've talked to the athletic director the assistant athletic director via email there's no there's no funds Matt we don't have enough funds for you to come in and provide services for the team we don't and that may be true is the university as a whole providing the the necessary tools is the clinic the best route for that university I don't know I don't know the data I don't know the data I'd have to go back and look you know it's it's just you hear it there's no there's no data there's no money there's no money there's no money we don't have any money which you know there's a lot of nonprofits that have been built and it's so sad to me that a lot of them have been built after the loss you know after another college athlete somebody's child was lost you know they to their their mental health I have seen nonprofits I was trying to find there's one in particular but I have seen a couple that I think are also trying to get out there and say you know like we need this we need this that's another really great example of transition work and transition isn't necessarily when they graduate although that's crucial too right if you had a really amazing four-year career as a college athlete and then you're done what's the transition work right what's the transition work that is offered to you you're now in this really scary place where you may not have insurance you might be in a transition off of your parents' insurance so are we making sure that those athletes know where they can get support from you know like if there's a season ending injury which in college could be career ending just because you are in such a you know tiny window to play how are we supporting that athlete if they there's just so many different and again you're talking about such a vulnerable age and then you add in the layer of the NIL which now asks these individuals to think like adults about livelihood and athlete identity and a future some of them might even be trying maybe they've been getting to this point for a future for not only themselves but their family they're in such a vulnerable position and we aren't in there mandating a sports psych staff an adequate counseling team relationships in the area I don't care you know I can go on psychology today and Google 535 you know like therapists right like under a certain filter 1400 therapists like so if you're a college if you're an athletic director that doesn't have the money to give your program what it needs then you better find yourself the social worker on your staff and get your resources locked up tight right being proactive right I don't know those resources as a as a cmpc.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

I don't I don't know those resources I could definitely find my way into identifying those resources is that my job it can be like I will it and it can be because I'm gonna sit here and tell you it's the athletic director's job too right it's a coach's job. I don't care if you are if you are taking on responsibility for some sort of the performance aspect the well-being of these people I don't want you to tell me that you don't have the money I don't want you to tell me that you know you didn't have the resources on staff right like I agree with you I'm I'm making it easy for those of you out there listening go find your social worker because it's it's embedded deep within us to build that resource list. But a lesson in advocacy and out outreach is like it's I'm not gonna listen to a cop out of somebody saying you know like I didn't have access to one okay you got Google you got email there's there's so many there's so many excuses that leaders throw out of to why I'm I'm tired of I'm tired of the excuses.

Proactive Culture Beats Annual Checklists

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Me too I'm like we we know this system is is backwards when it comes to mental health is very much reactive based versus proactive based. Yeah I do believe there are ways to prevent or reduce suicidality in organizations through proactive approach. The transition may still be a challenge but it's from a different it's gonna feel different because they've got the tools to understand their work they've got the tools to understand how to regulate stress they've got the tools to you know have the emotional intelligence the emotional clarity to understand that you know yes this sucks I I do feel sad I do feel frustrated I am angry that I'm injured but it's not consuming them to a point where they isolate themselves the culture and the environment is there to where they don't have to pull themselves out of the team there they find a different role in the team if the captain gets hurt does the captain disappear no no right yeah and I think there was an there was a post yesterday there is definitely a difference in your high profile athletes get treated much differently than you know the athlete that is happy they made the team right yeah I mean you're talking about like profile like clicks likes followers like high profile that way yeah franchise quarterback teams franchise quarterbacks gonna get very different services and treated very differently than the fifth string wide receiver or the fifth wide receiver or the you know the I get that but every single person made the same team I I agree and if you are a part of the team taking care of them I would hope that you would you know especially if you were in a performance psychology like headspace that ethically you would agree yeah and that and that's not me taking swipes at those individuals that may be a part of that environment but from an organizational standpoint an organizational standpoint your franchise quarterback's being treated much differently than somebody somebody on the the lower end of the totem pole and that and that in itself is structurally culturally morally not okay I mean I to you know play a little bit devil's advocate I guess to my own self and to you like I agree I would also say that they're they both made the same team they're they are existing in slightly different worlds right one of them one of them can't go out to dinner or make a mistake because their life is being watched very publicly in a way that the other one might not be so I can understand I can understand again there goes back to something you've heard me say before the person and environment is slightly different right I think you know as you're as we're talking about this what stands out to me is what I just mentioned and I'm gonna go back to about outsourcing and resourcing and that I think that you know I I live in a community full of people from CMPCs to you know therapists I'm sure there's plenty of coaches out there I'm gonna borrow a page from how a lot of first responder organizations do it right again there's another one where it's highly recommended but not mandated.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

But they have you know I think one of the things that they're trying to do and do as well as they can again I think all of this could be done better. But what I like about what they do is they outsource right and so what a lot of times will be created is a network of resources. There's word of mouth therapists that you know are really great hey go see this person. I think that I go back to the responsibility of the team in charge you can be on staff you can be one clinician on staff and it can be your responsibility to build a network for the people you're taking care of. I don't expect you to be the right fit for everybody. I do think that you should be responsible for referring and outsourcing and making sure that you know your client is taken care of. So again I go back to like the athletic director the coach the sports psychs that are on staff like you are outmatched right like you are or you're outnumbered that's not a bad thing but if you don't have a rock solid you know resource list I and I'm not saying like a list that you're like here it looks like you're struggling here's the list I'm talking about building those relationships build a relationship with a clinic or a therapist or a a band of therapists hey if this happens can you give an hour there's another program the military does really well right a whole network of people who are willing to give an hour. I'm not saying they're all a hundred percent what I am saying is that there is a system in place where if somebody needs access to something they can have it I've it's it's it's it's my referral list.

Embedded Teams And Measurable Impact

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Yeah right again I can't diagnose yeah but I need to have that list of a social worker a psychologist an LPC I need to have those tools available for when I may uncover some clinical barriers that need to be addressed that I can't address it's no different than a university an organization going hey here's we don't have this program for you here is this organization that does. If they do have these lists I wonder how often they're shared are they shared up front are they shared once is it kind of like the military in their annual training where it's done all in one day and you don't have to think about it for another year.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Yeah are they only provided this list if there is one one time and then it gets shoved into their desk going yeah I'm not gonna need that but I'm also curious like if I'm okay if I'm working in this space where there is no requirement right recommendations suggestions but I get to do with this program as I will and yes budget constraints right but what do I prioritize right like if I have somebody if I have somebody who is injured if I observe their you know their play they you know or they're injured they're not gonna be playing their grades they're not gonna be playing like if I have some reason why their performance is struggling right what do I as a leader what am I putting in place into the culture of my program hey you gotta go talk to XYZ I don't care if it's this person if it's that person if it's you know your own person I need that check-in I'm also going to say for the amount of paperwork right that we sign off on to have our kids somewhere not all of that is you know again if it's a rule of play if I hold you to taking care of yourself to be on my team then you know can I create follow through with that? I don't care who you go see but they need to you know they need to sign that you saw them like I don't want to I don't want anything else right here's the ticket you go and you see somebody and you bring this ticket back to me right like if we would do it if you got sick if you got injured I need a doctor's note I need a doctor's note right I need you to be cleared to play I don't then why would we not mandate a cleared to play which at leaves gets at least gives that person the opportunity to talk to somebody I think I don't think that we we will never eliminate suicidal ideation it's a part of the human psyche it's a symptom right any more than we'll eliminate anxiety or sadness or broken bones. But I do think that we owe it to every human to give them the opportunity to change their mind.

Trust, Stigma, And Warm Handoffs

SPEAKER_00 39:46

It comes back to the connection there's so many ways to make a connection we can't ignore the stigma that also potentially plays a part in suicide. I don't want to go see so and so out of fear of you know being pulled from the team being seen differently etc etc once the relationship is established and trust is built walls immediately come down immediately come down and and I will and I will speak to this because it I saw it specifically in the military yeah and you can't there are very few things that the military gets there are and I'll say it I nine years in the Marine Corps transitioned out of the military life in the VA ain't great but it's okay right like you're speaking from the trenches yes the amount of suicide that was scathed off simply by my presence in the unit was tremendous. Yeah right well and and we have and we and we have and we have the data we have the data that shows when you have embedded interdisciplinary teams that include a non-clinical CMPC we see compared to 2019 units that had embedded interdisciplinary teams have incurred a 36.8% reduction in service member suicides yeah compared to a 37% increase in suicides in units that did not that did not have embedded specialists substance abuse profiles dropped behavioral health profiles dropped when you had the appropriate personnel in place yeah and that comes from having I'll again I'll say it you having an OT and you have an OT in place you have a cognitive performance specialist in place you may have your MRT professionals in place while they not may not be directly attached to a unit as an embedded specialist there's enough of them wandering around the base that they are assigned a unit quote unquote well I I think that what I want to add on here that you're highlighting is the value of the non-clinical interdisciplinary team and I say that because there is there I think that if you're putting people on your team I would agree and you're worried about stigma I would agree that your team should be chock full of strength coaches ATs CMPCs OTs right that are all well aware that there's you know psychological first aid and suicide awareness and then a really badass relationship with the actual clinician somewhere because everybody is going to and everybody's gonna be comfortable talking about pain as it relates to an injury or performance.

Resource Networks And Real Follow-Through

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Right. It becomes very vulnerable and a little bit sticky when we you know start talking about mental health and that may be what it is and if it's that way forever fine then embrace that that's what's happening and stack your team stack your team like with that narrative in mind right like I agree with you some of the most successful places that I worked were when it was pretty much like written on my forehead that I couldn't diagnose. It was you know it was written that I had zero access to medical records. I still carried a stigma which I will agree with you that was some of was reduced when relationships were built but there was still a stigma and a concern and as far as the tactical and first responder areas that I have worked in I would venture to guess this bleeds into the athletic space as well that there is still a there's still very much a concern as to who owns that clinician right like if the agency owns the clinician if the team owns the clinician then when it comes down to where their loyalty lies it's really hard to ever guarantee that it lies with the client and just that perception just the idea that it might lie with the agency Or the team will hurt the clinician's relationship. So you stack your team with people who your client, who your players will open up to, who they will build relationships to, and then you get ready to outsource if need be. Yeah, I I I want to really like talk about, like you said, the value of the non-clinical team, that there's a clinician and the clinician is a valuable person 100%. But if the clinician is put in a position where they are seen as a right hand to the agency, to the team, to the coach, there's a perception that you may never get past with some of your athletes. And those might be the athletes that desperately need a a different approach.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

I want to see you perform better. Hands down. I will respect because again, I think it comes down to role clarity, understanding what the team, the university, the organization expects from you as a pro as a provider in say said team, right? But also understanding that I'm here to help you perform better. Yes, I care about your uh yes, I care about your mental health, your overall mental health, your mental wellness. I'm a piece to that. Let's dive into the performance while I'm side, I'm I'm chatting with you on the side about how things are going. I can tell me I can't tell you how many times I've stood in the in the middle of the woods. Just talking to the service member about their life, getting to understand them. They get to understand me because it's gonna be a long cold night, and I don't want you to think you can't come talk to me. I'm not gonna give you every little detail about my past. Yeah, but if you want to talk about what I did in the military, you want to talk about what I did post-military, you have questions about what let's talk, but I want to know about you too. What yeah, what makes you tick? Because it's the relationship, it's the trust, them to open up that way. When, and I'll say when or if they have that real struggle, they're gonna come to you and go, Hey, Matt, this happened this weekend. I'm pretty, pretty nervous, I'm pretty scared. Yeah, let's talk about it. Again, I'm not diagnosing, I'm figuring out the next course of action.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Yeah, well, you're I mean, again, so you're connecting. I and again, I've said this before, but the non-clinical staff are gateways, right? Like you, whether you want it or not, you hold you hold a lot of power in how you handle the athlete, you know, from how you handle what they're talking about, you know, from the understanding the value of like a well-placed and a misplaced suck it up. You are, you know, a warm handoff to a clinician is building a trust bridge. Like you gatekeep, it's the look. You're the you're the gateway.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

It's the look. When you know they're about to say something stupid, and you give them the look, and it's like, please don't come over here and cry about what just happened. Let's think about the skills that you were taught.

Modeling Care From College To Pros

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Yeah, but it's the difference. I you know, and again, like it's a really valuable relationship. Look was also built off of, you know, that look is built off of like trust and rapport, you know. I think, yeah. So I again, I I think that there's a ton of value again going back to, you know, if you're some sort of an agency or a school that doesn't have the budget, then find the resources, right? Work within the gray. And again, you know, we we're talking about programs, there's there's gaps. And I'm hoping that all of these programs, you know, are working on gaps. I personally think a very big gap across the board is what none of them really have is proactive outreach. The MLB I mentioned tries to use peer support. I think the NFL probably uses some of that as well. Nobody else. Nobody else in that space. And then again, these are big governing bodies that some of some of our college athletes are hoping to get to, right? But also have nothing other than what they can grab their hands on.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Could you imagine if let's let's say the NCAA gets their head out of their asses and starts mandating programs. Could you imagine what that transition from collegiate sport to the professional game would look like? Or transitioning away from sport because you didn't make it pro, or you're not play you, you don't participate in a sport that has, say, a professional league. Like a lot of college sports, there's no professional league after college. But could you imagine going from your collegiate game, having all of these programs, these proactive programs, having the full again, the full weight of the NCAA behind you, the university behind you, and then going to the a professional organization, and there ain't shit, but you have the tools, you know the resources. That way, that transition, when you get there in the struggle, you're like, I can hang on, let me let me go back and look at this real quick. Or I utilize this resource because this is what happened to me here, and you can go back to it and think about it, or see if there's another organization like that outside of your collegiate environment.

Stop Awareness Nights, Fund Outreach

SPEAKER_01 51:24

Like, I don't know, like you're I think you're making a great point though about modeling and educating. That's what I mean. That's it, right? Like, because I don't actually have to work, I don't have to worry as much about my child that goes to the NFL if they were if it was modeled, taught, or embedded into their performance care package, right? That in college they were it was modeled how to access care or it was modeled what they should have access to, right? Because in the same way that they've all been shown what kind of coach they should have, how they should work out, what to expect, you know, like expectations around even like social media and you know how to handle the press, right? If those things are already being modeled and introduced and supported or taught or whatever, then why not also go get help? It's okay. Here's how I you know, again, I go back to like for me, I think something you know that stands out, and it's it's not every story out there, right? But again, it falls back on the vulnerability of these kids and young adults and the transition and the fail point of of grabbing them and and you know at their lowest. And it's okay that it's their lowest, and it's allowed to be their lowest because they've just lost something they work so hard for, and so they're gonna grieve. That's where that's where we need to beef it up. That's where I want, you know, I want to know that my kid has a relationship with somebody, even if it's not me, that when they when they face hard and the heart is emotional and it's loss and it's grief and it's you know, I don't know where I'm gonna go from here, kind of loss, that they know to have the conversation with one person out there. They know how to go about having that conversation, and that when they have it, they're heard, or they know they're supposed to be heard. So, again, that regardless of what they're having, what thoughts they're having, how big those thoughts are, how scary they are, that they aren't left alone with them, and that they're supported to change their mind. That's that's my challenge.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

As and again, as a parent, that's like my kids are nowhere near college age. I would like to think in the next 10, 11 years, things will things will change. I mean I would hope. G Jesus Christ, I would hope.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

I would really hope that it doesn't take 10 years because we're sitting here 10, 20 years into, you know, like the news and the headlines, and like I said, the nonprofits. Like, I don't want another parent to make a non-profit after losing their kid to a gap that can be addressed.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

It can a hundred percent be filled.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

And budget is, I'm sorry, budget is a bad excuse. It's a terrible budget's an excuse. It's if you are in a position as a coach, leader, support staff, if you are the athletic director, if you I don't care because if if it comes, if it affects my kid, budget won't be a good enough reason then either.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

I mean, again, we've heard multiple people say that NIL has ruined college sports. And I would hope more of these donors do come out and say, where are the programs? Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

Yeah, where's the infrastructure?

SPEAKER_00 55:30

I would hope the NFL stops doing these campaign days and campaign weeks and these organizations having theme nights and like that's great. I don't want to completely poo-poo that. Awareness ain't changing the outcome. No, what you what you do internally changes.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Yep. Because if you're gonna spend your money on an awareness day, spend it on outreach and resources.

Final Challenge And Ways To Check In

SPEAKER_00 56:07

Uh, it's okay. They'll get a sponsor, they'll get a sponsor to sponsor that outreach day. They're not spending their money. They have they put out their, you know, event nights, right? They're different event nights. Everything had a sponsor to that night. They're not spending anything on these event nights. Other organizations are. You're not spending shit. You're just giving them the platform to support it. Just it's it's it's irritating. It's very irritating.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

You know, I my heart breaks. My heart is sad for the people who are losing these people in their life. I mean, suicide has such a cascading effect of loss. And so I, you know, I as and I know you and I both talk about this. It's a very, very passionate subject. It's one that I hope that we've handled with care and respect today, you know, to and to create advocacy and challenge for systems out there to do better. You know? The football season is in transition. Are you checking on yours? Right? The Olympics just ended. You know, we're but we're now gearing up for the summer cycle. You know, baseball season is coming up here soon.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

Spring, spring training.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

Yep, spring training.

SPEAKER_00 57:37

Games are being bats are being flung.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

Athletes, college athletes that are in their spring semester of their senior year are facing one of the biggest transitions. And for many of them, it may not go the way that you know the 12-year-old version of them dreamed, right? So what are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 57:58

The drafts are the drafts are upcoming.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

Yeah, check in with your people. Check in, get, you know, work with what you got to make it better.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Period. It can be it can be better. Yeah, it can be better, and we're not gonna have every solution.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

No, but I will I will put in the description of this episode, I will list any resources that we can find. I'll put some in. You know, I and yeah. So, you know, again, I hope that I hope we've created some noise. I think we're, you know, I hope we put pressure on people in the right places. So, yeah, hey guys, I appreciate everybody coming and pulling up a chair. I know that it was a deep conversation and intense. I think it warrants both of those descriptors. Um I think we're here to talk about pressure in all the right places.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

So Yeah, we can some people will always try and find a funny to get out of the uncomf to get out of the uncomfortableness. Yeah, this one just is not today's and ain't this and ain't funny. It's been a good I've enjoyed this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

I have too. We can do we can have hard conversations. So I appreciate everybody out there listening today. If you've got comments, you know, drop us a comment. If you are seeking care and you don't know where, you know, to get it, please check in. Please check in with a provider, check in with your coach, you know, check in with a friend. Don't sit with it alone.

SPEAKER_00 59:32

No, something needs to change. So let's let's work together.

SPEAKER_01 59:35

Let's figure it out. Let's change it so they can change their mind. So on that note, everybody, again, thank you so much. Until next time, we'll see you here under pressure.

SPEAKER_00 59:45

Yeah, thanks. See y'all.